Jobs vs. Employment in the CES and CPS Employment Series

A reader asserts that Senator Johnson, in stating “It’s not like we don’t have enough jobs here in Wisconsin.” means that I should be reporting number of jobs, not number of people employed. However, in the previous post, I was exactly showing manufacturing and nonfarm payroll employment jobs (drawn from the Current Establishment Survey), which refer to the number of jobs, to wit:

Source: Bowler, Morisi, “Understanding the employment measures from the CPS and CES survey,” Monthly Labor Review, February 2006

Now, the reader may believe the BLS is ill-placed to describe its own data series, but I have a little more faith. So in point of fact, in terms of jobs, it is appropriate to plot the series from the CES. (If you want the current description, see the BLS page on the differences between the survey, here).

Reader Econned then asserts without any supporting evidence that I can find:

You are showing jobs that are filled while Johnson is also referencing jobs that are not filled.

In point of fact, Johnson just says “It’s not like we don’t have enough jobs here in Wisconsin.” He does not say “It’s not like we don’t have enough unfilled jobs here in Wisconsin.” But even taking this assertion at face value, the total number of jobs plus openings had not regained the pre-recession peak of 3157 thousand total when Senator Johnson made his remark. Rather it was far below the level consistent with the pre-recession trend.

Figure 3: Wisconsin private nonfarm payroll employment plus job openings from JOLTS (blue), s.a, on a log scale NBER defined peak to trough recession dates shaded gray. Source: BLS via FRED, BLS, NBER, and author’s calculations.

The total of CES jobs and openings was 130 thousands below the 2009M06-2020M01 trend in February 2022, when Senator Johnson made his remark (trend estimated using regression on time trend).


Reader Econned claims I should be ashamed for using jobs instead of unfilled jobs. Well, here is the total number of jobs and unfilled jobs, and a picture of how that was below pre-recession levels in 2022M02, and far below trend, when Senator Johnson made his reference to *jobs*.

Figure 4: Wisconsin private nonfarm payroll employment plus job openings from JOLTS (blue), s.a, and trend estimated on 2009M06-2020M01 (red), both on a log scale. NBER defined peak to trough recession dates shaded gray. Source: BLS via FRED, BLS, NBER, and author’s calculations.


134 thoughts on “Jobs vs. Employment in the CES and CPS Employment Series

  1. Econned

    You’re not being honest. Again.
    You show employment via payrolls which is filled jobs. Johnson is referencing literal jobs – actual jobs filled and jobs that are unfilled. He clearly says “It’s not like we don’t have enough jobs here in Wisconsin. The biggest problem we have in Wisconsin right now is employers not being able to find enough workers.”
    You should be ashamed of yourself.

      1. ltr

        [ You show employment via payrolls which is filled jobs. Johnson is referencing literal jobs – actual jobs filled and jobs that are unfilled…. ]

        Wool and Water

        ‘It’s very good jam,’ said the Queen.

        ‘Well, I don’t want any to-day, at any rate.’

        ‘You couldn’t have it if you did want it,’ the Queen said. ‘The rule
        is, jam to-morrow and jam yesterday—but never jam to-day.’

        ‘It must come sometimes to “jam to-day,”‘ Alice objected.

        ‘No, it can’t,’ said the Queen. ‘It’s jam every other day: to-day
        isn’t any other day, you know.’

        Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There
        By Lewis Carroll

      2. ltr

        The matter is simple, a senator is not elected by voters in Oregon to bring jobs to Texas. Bringing jobs to Wisconsin is what Wisconsin voters expect a senator to do when at all possible. I cannot imagine supporting or excusing Senator Johnson in this matter if the well-being of Wisconsin residents is the issue.

      3. ltr

        Paul Krugman and Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez took the same discouraging stance when Amazon was about to create 25,000 fine-paying jobs in New York City. New York needed those jobs then and more so now, and especially needed the advanced technology focus that Amazon would have meant:

        February 14, 2019

        New York Returns 25,000 Jobs to Amazon
        As the company cancels its plans for a major Queens campus, anti-corporate activists got what they wanted at a great cost.

        September 14, 2022

        In New York City, Pandemic Job Losses Linger
        Even as the country as a whole has recovered all of the jobs it lost during the pandemic, the city is still missing 176,000 — the slowest recovery of any major metropolitan area.
        By Nicole Hong and Matthew Haag

        January 15, 2018

        Average Real Hourly Earnings of All Private Employees in New York, 2017-2022

        (Indexed to 2017)

    1. Menzie Chinn Post author

      Econned: Please, please, please, for pete’s sake, tell me where he writes “It’s not like we don’t have enough *unfilled* jobs here in Wisconsin.”

      By the way, look at the total NFP+job openings series. You made no reference to it. But for you I will draw the graph for you since you seem to be unable to comprehend words.

      1. Econned

        “The biggest problem we have in Wisconsin right now is employers not being able to find enough workers.” That is unfilled jobs unless employers are trying to find workers just for the hell of it.

        1. Econned

          So you’re going to pen an attack post with errors and then not even acknowledge or respond when your errors are pointed out?

          Your ego is borderline unbelievable and unquestionably shameful.

          1. pgl

            You are the one with an ego. I guess you think you pointed out errors but everyone here knows you did not. Now you did manage to prove the obvious – that you are the most worthless jerk God ever created. Nice job!

          2. Econned

            I suppose you’re not only dishonest and distasteful, you’re also a coward. Your (unjustified) ego and dastardly actions are the laughingstock of the econblogosphere. Coward.

          3. Baffling

            Econned continues to display an enormous amount of professional jealousy. To be so critical toward prof chinn while hiding behind anonymity is cowardice.

      2. Econned

        Also, regarding the inclusion of JOLTS data, my initial comment was clear (to anyone who can read) that I wasn’t defending Johnson’s claim but just pointing out the errors in your tragically flawed “analysis”.

        Yet another example of your inability to keep your emotions in check.

        1. pgl

          That is rich from someone who never learned to read himself. You are the most pointless troll ever. Run away.

      3. pgl

        Maybe Econned meant to claim RonJon said “job openings”. OK time for something Econned does not understand – actual economics. Job openings have been quite high which begs how to get more people taking those jobs.

        An actual economist might think of movements to shift the labor supply curve out such as better measures to address Covid-19. But RonJon was in the virus denier crowd – go figure.

        An actual economist might also suggest higher real wages as in a movement along the supply curve. But not RonJon or Econned. Go figure!

        Now had Econned been paying attention – he might have notice the dip to Job Openings in the latest reporting. So RonJon’s statement as amended by our number one jerk still has issues.

      4. pgl

        We should take Econned’s lead and come up with ways of rewriting right wing nonsense to make the nonsense good economics. I’ll start with rewriting the “sound money” BS from the likes of Judy Shelton and Stephen Moore. No – they are not talking about going back to something like the gold standard. They are talking about William Poole’s QJE 1970 classic!

        Oh dear – something tells me that Econned has no clue who even William Poole was. Never mind.

      5. CoRev

        Manzie, why did you add ” *unfilled*” to Econned’s quote???? Econned’s quote was: “It’s not like we don’t have enough jobs here in Wisconsin. The biggest problem we have in Wisconsin right now is employers not being able to find enough workers.”

        Yes! You should be ashamed of yourself.

        1. pgl

          God you are a MORON. Econned added this term to RonJon’s quote. Come on CoRev – learn to effing read.

          1. CoRev

            Hey moronic bark, bark, show us the ACTUAL Econned quote where he added unfilled. Just a reminder Menzie put his comment in QUOTES with UNFILLED highlighted with asterisks. Did Econned actually write this or did Menzie add it? Show us or are you just being a lying jerk again?

            It’s another simple test of who is the lying jerk which you have repeatedly failed.

          2. pgl

            October 6, 2022 at 4:53 am
            Hey moronic bark, bark, show us the ACTUAL Econned quote where he added unfilled

            More proof that CoRev never learned to read. Hey fool – please at least try to follow the thread of these posts. DAMN!

          3. pgl

            October 4, 2022 at 5:40 pm
            You’re wrong. The CES is based on surveys of businesses based on workers on payrolls. You are showing jobs that are filled while Johnson is also referencing jobs that are not filled.

            October 6, 2022 at 4:53 am
            Hey moronic bark, bark, show us the ACTUAL Econned quote where he added unfilled.

            Barkley is right – CoRev is the dumbest troll God ever created!

          4. CoRev

            Ole lying bark, bark I see you CAN NOT find the Econned quote. What you did reference wasn’t even a quote. Why do you have to lie to try to make a point?

            How many times will it take for others to ignore your lying comments?

        2. Noneconomist

          Manzie? Maybe Dr, Chinn should be ashamed of himself for allowing you to continue posting here,
          You shamelessly and continuously bite the hand that feeds you with a continuing stream of clueless comments.
          But what else is new?

        3. pgl

          October 7, 2022 at 2:03 am
          Ole lying bark, bark I see you CAN NOT find the Econned quote. What you did reference wasn’t even a quote. Why do you have to lie to try to make a point? How many times will it take for others to ignore your lying comments?

          ANOTHER example that proves CoRev cannot read. I lay out what Econned said for this waste of space and makes this comment? Maybe our host should ban people whose IQ is in the single digits. DAMN!

    2. Macroduck

      No offense to chihuahuas, but Econned is an intellectual chihuahua. He barks and growls and shows his tiny teeth, but there’s nothing behind all that show.

      Wait…maybe he’s a one-trick pony, since every one of his performances is the same. He accuses someone, often Menzie, of being dishonest over and over again. No offense to ponies. (I’m animal-woke.) It’s a bit odd that his accusations of dishonesty are themselves so dshonest.

      I don’t know what Econned’s problem is, but his every appearance here is a display of personal animus. Sad little chihuahua.

  2. Econned

    Also, your representation of BLS data is misleading at best. Both establishment and household surveys show employment – the former via filled jobs from payrolls and the latter via persons. As such, your title is misleading. It should read “jobs vs persons in the CES and CPS Employment Series“.

    Please do better. If nothing else but for the sake of your students.

    1. pgl

      So you are now advising the BLS? Seriously dude – their job is tough enough without have an ultimate moron like you getting in their way.

    2. Macroduck

      Eke, you seem to have an inflated view of you position. You are not in charge of English vocabulary (American version). You keep trying to define “jobs” and “employment” to suit your argument. That can only mean you don’t have much of an argument. Petty academic low-lives and barstool loud-mouths resort to this sort of quibbling, and you are clearly not an academic. You’re taking even quibbling to an extreme, pretending that anyone who uses a word in a way that doesn’t suit your argument must be dishonest. That’s dishonest.

      Did you fail an econ class? Is that why you behave this way?

    3. pgl

      “jobs vs persons in the CES and CPS Employment Series“.

      So BLS is lying when they refer to their monthly reports as the Employment Situation? Econned – I trust you realize how utterly stupid you really are. DAMN!

  3. David S

    Wow, just wow. Because of people like Econned we can be sure that Ron Johnson will be re-elected in a landslide—maybe with the same margin of victory as the annexation referendums in eastern Ukraine, particularly since the Republican party now has a similar level of control over the state’s voting system. As a casual student of economics I look at these graphs and conclude that the economy of Wisconsin is not exactly a sparkling success story. Curiously, Johnson might be right about some employers not being able to fill positions, but that’s most likely because they’re not offering competitive pay. I think there’s some economic research associated with the costs of products and services and the overall quantity of them.

    1. Anonymous

      all the noise over suspect vote counting …

      reminds me of the jan 6 protests

      and the 1954 vietnam unification elections that usa stopped

    1. CoRev

      “A reader? Econned does not read. He just acts like a jerk.” claims the biggest jerk on this and other blogs.

  4. pgl

    Since Econned wants to take the garbled talk of RonJon seriously – let’s note he also said this:

    “I wouldn’t insert myself to demand that anything be manufactured here using federal funds in Wisconsin,” Johnson told reporters after appearing at a “Parent Empowerment Rally” in Washington County. “Obviously, I’m supportive of it. But in the end, I think when using federal tax dollars, you want to spend those in the most efficient way and if it’s more efficient, more effective to spend those in other states, I don’t have a real problem with that.”

    So he would rather have a factory opened in NY than Wisconsin? I’m cool with that. Of course if the issue is finding employees, one could rely on labor mobility. Workers migrating from his state to blue states would mean more Democrats in the House. And if we needed workers to migrate from other nations, New Yorkers are cool with that even if the racist governors of Texas and Florida are not.

    1. Barkley Rosser

      pgl et al,

      It is my understanding this is the context of RonJon’s remarks, which look pretty silly.

      1. pgl

        Not as silly as the barking from CoRev that tries to deny Econned edited RonJon’s babbling. I am not in favor of animal abuse but maybe someone should put this barking dog down for his own good.

  5. Econned

    Another point regarding your addendum, I did not claim that you “should be ashamed for using jobs instead of unfilled jobs”. I’m claiming you should be ashamed for conveniently ignoring (to fit your subjective narrative) that Johnson’s comment is in regards to “employers not being able to find enough workers”. Anyone with the slightest amount of common sense knows that Johnson is suggesting that employers want to increase the number of hires (ie they have jobs they want to fill but that remain vacant). As such, a measure of employment (whether from the establishment series or the household series) will not suffice in refuting Johnson’s claim. You failed miserably and you should be ashamed that you’ve mislead your readers and allowed your damaged ego to result in wasting people’s time. Yet again. You should just fess up, wipe the egg off of your face, stop digging your toes into the sand, pen a mea culpa post, and all will be forgiven.

    1. pgl

      I’m sure our host hangs on every piece of advice from our loud mouth village idiot. Go pester the Marginal Revolution crowd if you are not the total coward we all know you to be.

    2. pgl

      You do know that “Anyone with the slightest amount of common sense” excludes RonJon – don’t you? Seriously sir jerk – you should offer to be RonJon’s chief economist!

  6. ltr

    “It’s not like we don’t have enough jobs here in Wisconsin. The biggest problem we have in Wisconsin right now is employers not being able to find enough workers.”

    — Ron Johnson

    [ The point of course has nothing to do with employers not being able to find enough workers, but with employers being unwilling to pay properly, pay enough to attract workers. As for Ron Johnson, the likely indifference to adding manufacturing jobs in Wisconsin is that the jobs in question would be union jobs. Of course, workers in Wisconsin would benefit from a union manufacturing plant opening. ]

      1. pgl

        Oh gee – you noticed that the labor force participation rate is in the low 60’s percentage wise. OK moron – please educate us when it was ever 100%. Way to prove once again you are a worthless idiot.

  7. Macroduck

    Speaking of jobs, let’s speak of JOLTS. I don’t know why healthcare and social services opens fell so much, but the big decline in job openings was in retail is easy to understand. The holiday hiring season is about to begin and recent corporate announcements indicate a cutback in seasonal hires. In fact, WalMart alone accounts for most of the 143,000 dcline in retail openings. This drop in openings suggests a slowing in Q4 hiring, since there was no decline in retail hiring so far in Q3 to correspond with the drop in openings.

    The seasonal pattern n retail openings can be seen here:

    There was also a drop in transportation openings, which lines up with the announcement that FedEx is also cutting back.

    1. pgl

      Thanks for looking at the details at JOLTS. I thought I was the only one who noticed the drop in Job Openings but as usual you are one step ahead of me.


      Yeah, but job openings rose in 2018……job creation did not. It’s not a great indicator and it’s only data driven for 20 years. NFP should average 100-200 a month. Think about it…..

      1. Macroduck

        Agreed, openings have changed over time. That doesn’t mean there is no information in the series. It means comparing levels or ratios between distant periods is misleading.

    1. Barkley Rosser

      Well, it is pretty flat, although with some hills here and there, such as the Mesabi range, and also they happen to have 13,000 lakes that are mostly pretty, as well as a substantial chunk of Lake Superior shoreline in the northeast, not to mention the source of the Mississippi River and its upper reaches, with it going through Minneapolis, the state’s largest city. In short, it does not look too bad, “Anonymous.”

      BTW, when you informed us that you had been in the military and also had dealt with classified material, that certainly looked like a case of why people say that the term “military intelligence” is an oxymoron.

  8. Macroduck

    GDPNow adds up to 2.7% growth for Q4 as of today’s data releases, up from a prior 2.3%.

    Inventories no longer a drag while personal consumption growth is still put at less than 1%. Here’s one source of that situation:

    Angry Bear uas lots more thoughts and links:

    I don’t have a feel for how much of the latest inventory swing is automotive. Whatever the magnitude is, getting those trucks to dealers and then sold will result in another shift to PCE rising, inventories falling.

      1. CoRev

        BTW, another blog which banned his participation for being a jerk. Speaking of jerks run75441 and the other moderators have banned almost every conservative.

        1. pgl

          If you got banned from Angrybear, I have to applaud these guys. Angrybear like EconomistView welcomed well reasoned conservative thought but moronic whining little clowns like you are have no clue what conservative economic thought even looks like. You would be banned from Marginal Revolution or Mankiw’s place.

        2. Macroduck

          How could you possibly know everyone bannd at Angry Bear? Absent that knowledge, you can’t know what you just claimed to know. Kinda dishonest.

          Angry Bear’s comments were once full of silly claims and angry denunciations. Now, that’s not the case. On the evidence, they’ve banned trolls and liars. If that’s what you meant by “conservative”, I think some conservatives would take offense. But then Republicans have mostly shunned old-fashioned conservatives by now.

          What’s Bob Corker up to these days? Jeff Flake? John Boehner? Paul Ryan?

  9. ltr

    Yeah, but job openings rose in 2018……job creation did not.
    Yeah, but job openings rose in 2018……job creation did not.
    Yeah, but job openings rose in 2018……job creation did not.

    [ Nonsense for the sake of nonsense, enough already:

    January 4, 2018

    Total Nonfarm Private Employment, 2017-2022 ]

  10. ltr

    January 4, 2018

    Real Average Hourly Earnings of All Employees in Manufacturing, 2017-2022

    (Indexed to 2017)

    [ Notice the failure of manufacturing real earnings to increase from 2017-2019, then the manufacturing earnings decrease following the recession in 2020. ]

    1. Barkley Rosser

      Actually, among current GoPs, one of those who has most loudly and frequently proposed cutting Social Security and Medicare has been none other than Sen. Ronald Johnson (R-WI).

  11. pgl

    Putin wants you to know he is the toughest dude on the planet:

    Russia’s ill-fated invasion of Ukraine is coming apart at the seams and top Kremlin propagandists are unraveling right along with it. In the absence of good news from the front, Putin’s regime is promoting other ideas on how to deal with the self-inflicted disaster.Prominent experts routinely featured on Kremlin-controlled state television roundly reject the mere idea of negotiations, and none of them dare suggest Russia’s withdrawal from Ukraine in order to end the war. Instead, they’re doubling down—and proposing to kill leading Westerners in charge of helping Ukraine defend itself from the Russian invasion. Appearing on the state TV show The Evening With Vladimir Solovyov Tuesday night, Yevgeny Satanovsky—one of Russia’s most prominent pro-Putin propagandists—proposed a deadly solution. Solovyov cut to the chase, asking Satanovsky: “How do we win? How should we react to the Americans? What should Russia do?” Satanovsky, who serves as the president of Russia’s Institute of the Middle East after heading the Russian Jewish Congress, replied: “Russia is what it is, in terms of a nation. We’ll continue to be the way we are. Those who are with us will be fine and the rest we will kill… Acting against us is a relatively small group that is in charge of this camp—they are menacing and fear nothing. Since Gorbachev’s times, once we started to play by their rules, they stopped fearing us. This is the main factor.”

    Seriously? His war criminals cannot even control the annexed terrorities in Ukraine. I do not fear this fraud but yea – his hallow threats have the likes of JohnH singing his praises. Putin’s poodles are nothing more than cowards.

    1. Barkley Rosser


      Oh this would be hilarious if it were not so sick. “Satanovsky”? Somehow I have not heard of this guy before. And Putin has accused the US of “Satanism.” Really, this is too much.

    2. Ivan

      When none of the sane solutions are viable (or have worked for you) – then the insane “solutions” come out on the table for armchair generals. Biden has trapped Russia and they are getting to realize that. Russia is slowly being degraded both militarily and as a society. Putin cannot end this conflict, yet its continuation will be the end of Russia as a functioning society and player on the world scene.

    1. pgl

      Walker pretends he is the Christian here which is an insult to every branch of the Christian religion that has not gone insane.

  12. pgl

    A woman who said Herschel Walker paid for her 2009 abortion is the mother of one of his children, according to a new report Wednesday, undercutting the Georgia Republican Senate candidate’s claims that he didn’t know who she was.

    She gave birth to one of his children and this “Christian” does not know who she is? Hershell Walker – irresponsible womanizer.

    1. CoRev

      Another theoretical claim that is still not proven. From the article: ” These traditional cells can also be coupled with an economical thermal energy storage unit to generate electricity at all times of the day. ” Can be? Not are coupled to generate electricity. Questions include: how efficiently, for how long, and what cost? And of course, why? What problem are you solving?

      1. Ivan

        Sure, the shape of the earth is “still not proven”.

        Here I thought that the intermittency problem needed solving. But I am glad you seem to agree that it is not a problem – just another right wing BS word salad to argue against something that cannot be argued against in a rational way.

        1. CoRev

          Ivan, how does this solve the intermittency problem? Why did you ignore my questions? ” Questions include: how efficiently, for how long, and what cost? And of course, why? What problem are you solving?”

          1. Barkley Rosser

            Yes, Ivan, how dare you not answer all of CoRev’s questions? He is constantly throwing all these questions at all sorts of people, questions he does not know the answers to, but thinks that because he does not know the answers (o maybe he thinks he knows the answers, but is almost certainly wrong if he does), you can therefore say nothing at all about any of these topics.

            To CoRev, how do you know that the earth is flat and the siy is green? Answer my questions! Answer my quesrtions! How dare you open your mouth until you answer my questions?!

            Oh, and there are still there those oldies you still have not answered, you know: just again how many and what awards did you get whlle you were supposedly working on the Apollo program as you claimed here on numerous times but have since gone silent about?

          2. CoRev

            Barkley claims Ivan answered the questions. Show us where they were answered. Why is it that liberals have to lie?

    2. CoRev

      3 simple questions of Net Zero/Green Projects

      1) How will you do it? (show us the engineering, the resources, the details, the build program and infrastructure)
      2) How much will it cost? (then triple it cause governments can’t manage projects!)

      If they are not answered then the proposal is just another answer solving another undefined problem.

      1. baffling

        this comment by covid lacks any intelligence. other than a constant voice of complaint, what useful purpose do you serve the world, covid?

        1. pgl

          CoRev asks over and over questions like these and when people provide honest answers, he just ignores the comment. And then he claims no one has ever answered his questions. CoRev is a TOTAL. WASTE. OF. TIME.

          1. CoRev

            Ole bark, bark answer the questions or better still go back to AB where your lying is more appreciated.

          2. Ivan

            A simple google search will answer his questions, but he doesn’t really seek the answers – he seeks some rhetorical rabbit hole where he can deny reality or make irrelevant questions the focus. In the mean time those projects are doing just fine without him believing in them. Your last sentence bear repeating. CoRev is a TOTAL. WASTE. OF. TIME.

        2. CoRev

          Baffled , so you can not answer any of the 3 questions. Another example of ideology trumping common sense.

          1. pgl

            ALL of your questions have been answered over and over. But then you cannot read so hey!

            Come on CoRev – we get you are a total waste of space so maybe you should just STFU.

        3. Ivan

          Yes he is poster boy for many a right wing motivated reasoning BS “debating”.
          “It will not work”
          “We cannot afford it”
          “It will not scale up”
          “insurmountable and unforeseen problems will magically appear in the future”
          “It will not last for 100 years”
          “It is all a lie and faked data”
          “Let’s talk about something else”
          Simple fact is he doesn’t want to believe so he never will – damn the facts and his own lying eyes.

          1. CoRev

            Ivan, just refute what I have said/asked. Can you show where I made any of those statements, otherwise stop using quote marks.

            Simple fact is he wants to believe, but the facts and failure to answer the 3 simple questions makes it nearly impossible. Babcock Ranch is a prime example of how hyperbolic are the claims. Why the need to lie about the successes?

          2. baffling

            there is nothing hyperbolic about Babcock. that was reality. you just do not like the outcome of that experiment.

      2. Ivan

        Lets begin with a simple math question for economist students wannabe:

        Community A gets 100% of its electricity from hydrocarbons sources and community B gets 5% of its electricity from the same hydrocarbon sources, and both use the same amount of electricity. Which community will release approximately 20 times more Carbon dioxide than the other?

        1. CoRev

          Ivan, like Baffled you are trying to save the world from CO2? Also in a decade?

          How is CO2 bad? Since you think a web search answers the 3 questions I’ve asked, why not just answer them?

          1. CoRev

            Barkley, doltfully says: “Because it causes global warming, you utterly worthless moron.:

            That must mean he can answer question 3: “3) HOW MUCH WILL IT CHANGE THE GLOBAL TEMPERATURE?

            I wait doubtful he has answer.

          2. Barkley Rosser


            You worthless moron.

            What is this “it” that you demand in capital letters people provide an answer to regarding “how much will it change global temperature”? Allow me to point out how utterly incoherent your stupid set of questions is. Your it is apparently “projects,” a plural. Which projects? How many of them?

            You are just mouthing incoherent rhetotic and claiming you are asking serious questions. All you are doing is sticking your head down a toilet and flushing while demanding that people clean up your poop for you.

          3. CoRev

            Barkley, why the use of infantile ad homs? Their use shows a lack of maturity and signals the loss of the debate.

            Asking what the “it” means points to a lack of reading comprehension and comprehensions problems. I even quoted your comment:
            “Because it causes global warming, you utterly worthless moron.”

            Since you fail to follow the discussion let me rep[eat the question comment:

            3 simple questions of Net Zero/Green Projects

            1) How will you do it? (show us the engineering, the resources, the details, the build program and infrastructure)
            2) How much will it cost? (then triple it cause governments can’t manage projects!)

            If they are not answered then the proposal is just another answer solving another undefined problem.”

            So “IT” refers to Net Zero/Green Projects., and their goals of lowering CO2 emissions.

          4. Barkley Rosser


            There you go again, exhibiting massive stupidity. Sorry, but when people say things as stupid as 2+2=5 that deserves to be called out.

            Sorry, moron, but “Proectrs” is plueal. “It” s singular. Even if we ignore this basic stupidity, the fact is that there is a wide array of such possible “projects,” with different ones having different effects. Your question is simply outrageously unanswerable in any meangingful way It is a DUMB QUESTION, and you are completely out of line with your constant asing of these dumb and outrageous questions.

            I am changing my question to you, because I am becoming increasingly disgusted by your worthless lying garbage.

            When will you admit that your entire set of claims about your work on the Apollo program was just a total and complete lie? Answer my question!!!!!!!!!!

        2. CoRev

          Barkley, singular vs plural? That’s the best you can come up with? How much cost/benefits or engineering studies is appropriate to spending $Trillions or even $Billions? It’s you folks who think there are NO BENEFITS to using fossil fuels. That’s NONE if we listen to Ole Bark, bark.

          Why the childish concern over my awards, Apollo or others? Sounds a lot like penis envy. Are you envious or just insecure?

          1. Barkley Rosser


            This will be my last comment on this now overly long thread, given that C just goes on and on, deeper into a toilet.

            Bottom line is that he did not answer my question. He did not do so because I correctly noted that he gave contradictory tales in the past about this matter. So instead he refuses to answer and claims I am bringing his contradictions and lies up about this matter now to be a matter of “penis envy.” Sorry, Corev, if yours is no longer functioning. Pathetic.

            So, sorry, CoRev, this has nothing to do with me being involved with the US space program. I never was and never claimed I was. As for awards, I have received many, which I shall not list here. As someone operating here under my own real name, my record is public. I have received many awards for this and that., none for the US space program. Some of the more prestigious are in my Wikipedia entry, but I have many others.. For those who want to dredge deeper, well, my cv is also out there in the open public record, unlike you, CoRev.

            So the issue here is that you have made in the past multiple contradictory claims about your role in the Apollo program. Menzie pinned down that whatever you were doing was before you got an engineering degree you claimed at some point to have gotten. This means that whatever you did with the Apollo program, if you did anything at all, was extremely low level. You on a couple of occasions claimed to have been involved in some communications systems issues. But, of course, you were always vague about your personal input, which, given your admitted lack of education clearly amounted to not much. My jokes about you cleaning out toilets were probably overdone, but, I suspect, not by much. You may have actually had something to do with the Apollo program, and you might even have received some sort of recognition for it, But it was pretty clearly barely above zero, which just punctuates your contradictory pile of lies about your alleged awards, which, getting to the bottom line, you do not wish to discuss, and we all understand why.

            So, I remind you how all this came about, again exhibiting you as a seriously worthless liar. You claimed and held for some time that my late father was not involved seriously in the Apollo program. Menzie himself found that indeed my old man was on the public record. You then attempted to claim that somehow I had presented a contradictory story about my father’s involvement in that program, but that was you accusing me of what you do. My story was always not only consistent, but historically verifiable and true. You were lying scum.

            Just to put a bottom line on this, I shall report yet another formerly deeply classified matter involving my late father and the US space program. For starters a matter noted here repeatedly, his book published in 1945, The Mathematics of Space Flight, remains in print and remains a foundational work on this topic.

            Now for the matter not ever publicly revealed publicly. My old man was the top rocket scientist of the US in WW II. When the V2s went up vertically, in contrast to the V1a that were aimed at their targets, it was to my late father that the US military leaders came to explain how those rockets could hit London as described by Thomas Pynchon, a former student of my father’s at Cornell, in his Gravity’s Rainbow.

          2. baffling

            “Menzie pinned down that whatever you were doing was before you got an engineering degree you claimed at some point to have gotten. ”
            there is no way somebody like covid has an engineering degree. he has not even taken an advanced calculus course, much less differential equations or linear algebra. his understanding of physics is not calculus based. his knowledge of stem is high school level, not university level. he does not have an engineering degree.

          3. CoRev

            Barkley, in you long bloviation you just confirmed what I questioned. “Why the childish concern over my awards, Apollo or others? Sounds a lot like penis envy. Are you envious or just insecure?”

            Even Baffled noted an example of your misrepresentation/lying of the past arguments. An engineering degree? Why do you continue to do so?

    3. Macroduck

      Just guessing wildly, based on the text, it sounds like the round-the-clock ability is the result of reduced heat loss. The new photovoltaic cells don’t lose much heat, so can run off stored heat. If that’s the case, where is the heat stored, I wonder? My next guess is that it’s stored in the intermediate layer. That would avoid transmission losses.

      1. Ivan

        Yes that appears to be the way they do it. In principle the liquid sodium solar systems are doing something similar but at utility scale. They collect solar energy as heat (in molten sodium) during the day, then use that heat to make electricity overnight. However, this is a much more efficient system that could also work at the single house level. Used in microgrids, it could reduce the need for battery storage capacity.

        This is a highly efficient solution to the right wing “problem” of “intermittency” or “but the sun doesn’t shine 24 hours a day”. That is why they hate it so much.

        1. baffling

          there is another group who has developed the ability to harness infrared given off by objects at night. while obviously the intensity is lower, it creates an opportunity to harvest via photovoltaic both day and night. again, we continue to address this intermittency myth. some would have you believe it is simply technologically a mountain that cannot be climbed. others are scaling the mountain, and describing the view from the top. it is fascinating to listen to the excuses from those who try to obstruct technological progress. and yet we still progress.

          1. CoRev

            Baffled claims: “we continue to address this intermittency myth. ” Myth? Even your touted Babcock Ranch maintains night time electric power by drawing from the FPL grid where it is mostly populated with gas fired electrons. On cloudy days it can sove its intermittency MYTH by drawing from expensive batteries.

            No question renewables intermittency is NOT a myth.

          2. Ivan

            Yes “solar” (or should we call them irradiation) panels for infrared light would be a similar principle of using heat to generate electricity – saving the current cost of batteries. Combine it with a heat pump system and you could have never ending energy 24/7/365 rain or shine for billions of years. Although that admittedly is a technology in development.

          3. pgl

            this intermittency myth

            You forgot to capitalize INTERMITTENCY. After all CoRev needs all the help he can get with his reading since his preK teacher gave up on the little boy.

          4. baffling

            it is a myth because it is not the problem you claim it to be.
            on the other hand, natural gas plants shut down in texas for a week. that is an intermittency problem that needs to be addressed.

            I do not care if Babcock runs off of cheap fpl power at night. they still get cheap solar power during the day. and they kept the power on during hurricane Ian, while other communities lost power.

            covid, would you rather have a total power loss for a week? or power for half the day during that week? serious question. what is your answer?

          5. CoRev

            Baffled asks an excellent question: ” would you rather have a total power loss for a week? or power for half the day during that week? serious question. what is your answer?”

            My preference would be to not have any power loss, especially that PLANNED loss at night or during cloudy/stormy periods.

            This article: explains why it is today a bad solution. It concludes with:
            “It is way too soon to be envisioning a 100% renewable future with significant contributions from current wind and solar capabilities. It is not a good strategy to support current “green” technologies and retire and prohibit conventional generation hoping that a miracle will occur when we need it. Perhaps with the extensive deployment of nuclear power, carbon capture and other technologies we might be able to approach a zero-carbon grid. At best, current wind and solar technologies will play at most a small part in such a plan.”

            We agree that the thermal sources need hardening to fulfill their role of primary supplier and renewables backup roles,\. It is a hard financial sell when the overwhelming attention is given to renewables, and thermal fuels are severely attacked. But that’s the liberal mindset. Fossil fuels bad! Renewables good even though evidence shows otherwise with ~200 deaths in TX alone.

          6. Baffling

            Corev simply cannot admit that the solar powered babcock community was a success. It is pointless to discuss anything with him. Even when the facts are shoved down his throat, he simply responds with juvenile denial. Babcock spits in his face, and we simply get a response that amounts to “alternative facts”. The grass is green and the sky is blue, covid.

          7. Baffling

            “My preference would be to not have any power loss, ”
            Which is exactly what happened in babcock during the hurricane. Unlike neighboring communities.

          8. CoRev

            Baffled says: “Which is exactly what happened in babcock during the hurricane. Unlike neighboring communities.”, but even you admit that it was due to hardening of building and infrastructure codes and not due to the premise of the article die to being a 100% renewable/battery. That was even disproved in the several references.

          9. Baffling

            No. There were other communities with hardened infrastructure that still lost power. It is the combination of items that provided resiliency to the Babcock community. The solar and battery components were a required component, that many communities did not have. Covid, this was a successful example. And one you should not continue to deny. It simply makes you look like a fool.

          10. CoRev

            Baffled, always the zealot. Even when the proof has been provided that connection to the gas fired external grid is what saved Babcock Ranch from blackouts. Unless you can show the actual usage numbers where no external grid electricity was used, yo are just staring up that ole unicorn’s butt for the”miracle” confirmation.

          11. baffling

            so covid wants us to believe that the Babcock only maintained power because they were hooked up to the grid. but the neighboring communities were also hooked up to the grid, and they did lose power. but somehow this does not register with covid. one neighborhood went dark, and the other maintained power. but the batteries and solar panels had nothing to do with this. riiiiiiiight.

            I will repeat once more. Babcock maintained power, and is an example that is absolutely terrifying to covid and similar ilk. which is why they are throwing the kitchen sink at it as a means to denigrate the success of this renewable community. but it is a reality. a real world example of the success of renewables and resilient electric grids.

  13. Moses Herzog

    Finally, a single Republican who speaks the sad truth about Republicans. Republicans never cared about abortions. EVER. It’s all a ruse for white trash so that Republicans can get unfair market advantages, the killing of true free markets, and regressive taxes on those making less income than they make. You could have slit the throat of an infant live on FOX news, slow motion video of all the blood draining out, Republicans never cared about that. Republicans only cared if they could get functionally illiterate American white trash to believe they “cared” about the unborn child:

    1. pgl

      “Dana Loesch, a conservative radio host and former spokesperson for the National Rifle Association, put it best this week when she said: “I don’t care if Herschel Walker paid to abort endangered baby eagles. I want control of the Senate.”

      That is certainly the Ted Cruz et al. line.

      1. baffling

        yes, this is a very sad statement by the republican brand. but we already know that hypocrisy was not a problem with republicans. just ask mitch McConnell.

  14. Steven Kopits

    Econned is correct, and so is Johnson. Wisconsin’s unemployment level is 3.1%, right about at historic lows. Labor force participation has declined a bit, but basically Wisconsin is at full employment. The notion that there should or could be somehow potential employment of an incremental 130,000 is ridiculous. Total population growth to 2040 is projected at 160,000 persons, of which at best 65% would be in the workforce. It’s unlikely Wisconsin could add 130,000 jobs in the next twenty years. Moreover, there are only 97,000 unemployed in Wisconsin. Even at zero percent unemployment, Wisconsin could not fill 130,000 incremental jobs.

    By any reasonable measure, Wisconsin is materially at full employment.

    1. pgl

      Oh brother – someone has not followed the conservation at all. Oh wait – you do not read. You bloviate. Go away Captain Obvious.

    2. pgl

      Your bloviating flips flops more than an IHOP chef. Unemployment nation wide is low – no? But who has been telling us we have been in a RECESSION all year? Damn – you are the master at making a fool out of yourself.

    3. pgl

      “Total population growth to 2040 is projected at 160,000 persons, of which at best 65% would be in the workforce.”

      I guess you think Wisconsin has banned immigration not just from other nations but also from other states. Come on Stevie – I never imagined any one could be THIS INCREDIBLY STUPID?

  15. pgl

    Georgia’s Republican Lt. Governor Geoff Duncan threw Trump’s boy Hershell Walker under the bus!

    “I think every Republican knew that there was baggage out there,” Duncan said about Walker during a CNN interview on Wednesday. “But the weight of that baggage is starting to feel a little closer to unbearable at this point.” … “And if we’re being intellectually honest, Herschel Walker won the primary because he scored a bunch of touchdowns back in the ’80s, and he was Donald Trump’s friend,” Duncan continued. “And now we’ve moved forward several months on the calendar and that’s no longer a recipe to win.”

    Of course Duncan should say that. My question is WTF is up with the other members of the former Republican Party.

  16. pgl

    World trade in goods is projected to slow sharply next year under the weight of high energy prices, rising interest rates and war-related disruptions, raising the risk of a global recession, according to a new forecast. Total exports and imports of goods are likely to grow by just 1% in 2023, the World Trade Organization said on Wednesday. That would be down from its previous forecast of 3.4% and its forecast of 3.5% for this year. The WTO also lowered its forecast for global economic growth in 2023 to 2.3% from earlier expectations of 3.3%, and warned of an even sharper slowdown should central banks raise interest rates too sharply in their efforts to tame high inflation.

    Maybe Central Banks should back off from their tight money stances.

  17. pgl

    This just in. He is really stupid. And yea – he already admitted that he had a kid with that woman he denies knowing:

    Herschel Walker’s attempt to answer reporter questions Thursday about whether he paid for an ex-girlfriend’s abortion crashed and burned, as he implied in rambling responses that he has not confirmed that the ex-girlfriend was the mother of one of his children. The problem with that explanation? Walker has, in fact, confirmed that this woman is the mother of one of his kids. He did so to The Daily Beast in June, when we first broke the story about an undisclosed child. Asked whether he’d reached out to any of the mothers of his children, Walker replied, “Why do I need to?”

    The reporter explained that The Daily Beast had reported that the woman who says he paid for her to abort their child was also the mother of one of his children. Walker then implied that the woman would have to be the mother of a child he had not yet acknowledged.

    “Because of the article I had more kids. That’s why I haven’t reached out to anyone, because I said no. And that’s what I mean when I said no, I said it’s not correct, that’s a lie. And that’s what I mean, when that’s a lie,” Walker said. But that explanation doesn’t make sense. Months ago, Walker himself publicly confirmed to The Daily Beast that this woman is the mother of one of his children. The Daily Beast independently confirmed the claim with a family court clerk and a court order declaring Walker the father, citing a DNA test.

  18. pgl

    JohnH claims the Ukraine forces are hapless but here is the reality on the ground:

    As Ukraine consolidates the territory it has recaptured in the northeastern Kharkiv province, it continues to make gains in the east and south of the country. Kyiv’s forces have taken back more than 150 miles of land in the southern Kherson province that had fallen to the Russians early in the war, Ukraine’s southern military command said Thursday. Spokesperson Natalia Humeniuk added the situation along the southern front remains fluid. At the same time, the Ukrainian counteroffensive that drove Russian troops out of Kharkiv and across the border has extended to the neighboring provinces of Luhansk and Donetsk, which make up the industrial Donbas region that Russia covets. Among the prize gains was the strategically important city of Lyman.

    1. Ivan

      In the mean time ISW report that back in Russia a couple of “players” are gearing up to take over after Putin. The Chechnyan leader and the Wagner group leader have each created their own information platforms to blast out how good THEY are doing (and how bad the military is). Not that there isn’t a lot to point fingers at, but it would be more helpful for Russia if those guys would solve problems rather than point fingers at them

      It is pretty clear that Putin could not survive just pulling out and giving Ukraine back to Ukraine. But Russia and Putin cannot survive continuing this war either. His economy is in much worse shape than officially admitted (local officials not only have to produce “soldiers” (warm male bodies) but also steal public employees and business owners income to purchase basic equipment for these “soldiers”.

      It is beginning to look like Putin is going to lose this war on the battlefield, as well as at home, within the next year. That would likely be the end of Putin. But with two Crown Princes each commanding their own armed forces (and the official Russian military degraded) are we looking at a potential civil war?

  19. Macroduck

    ADP jobs data for September showed a gain of 208,000 private sector jobs. The median estimate for payroll employment in the BLS data is 275,000 – pretty close. Gains were wide-spread by firm size in the ADP data, but not by sector. Of the 10 sectors covered in the ADP data, 5 showed declines and one as flat. Service hiring was mostly strong, goods hiring weak.

    One factoid offered by ADP which could signal a head-fake in BLS data is that the re-opening of school pulled people back into the labor market. That’s always the case at his time of year, but if ADP found it worth mentioning, it could mean a rise in the partition rate and in the jobless rate. It would amount to an exaggerated seasonal effect. A rise in the jobless rate because of increased participation is not a bad thing in terms of economic health, though it can be a drag on wages.

    1. pgl

      “ADP jobs data for September showed a gain of 208,000 private sector jobs. The median estimate for payroll employment in the BLS data is 275,000 – pretty close.”

      BLS report out today and payroll employment rose by 263,000. Pretty close indeed!

    2. Moses Herzog

      Here is the thought that occurs to me recently~~~If being “hyper-educated”, getting a PhD, getting a JD (something I normally think of as admirable and I envy), if getting a PhD or JD and all it gets you is “The best way the stop inflation is to increase national joblessness”, then that JD/Phd should get a strong handgun with kickback, go out to the rural woods to save their families the carpet clean-up, and save society a ton of aggravation. If after getting a PhD/JD, all they can do is say “increased joblessness is the answer to slightly above average temporary inflation”, please head to the nearest woods alone with a Model 29 Magnum .44. PLEASE/

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