Cooperation with “Red China”

Reader Ed Hanson remarks:

Red China has been protectionist since its beginning. [A]nd certainly has since it joined the worldwide trade in the 80’s or so. Did protectionism make it weaker?

In light of Mr. Trump’s remarks today:

“China should start an investigation into the Bidens, because what happened in China is just about as bad as what happened with Ukraine.”

What do people like Ed Hanson (I’m guessing old, and still worrying about Commies, but thinking Russians are ok) think Mr. Trump should bargain away in terms of trade sanctions on “Red China” in order to get that investigation?

 

52 thoughts on “Cooperation with “Red China””

  1. joseph

    “What do people like Ed Hanson think Mr. Trump should bargain away in terms of trade sanctions on “Red China” in order to get that investigation?”

    We found out today. According to people present for the phone call, Trump agreed to keep quiet about the unrest in Hong Kong if Xi agreed to help him with Biden. Just a little exchange of political favors.

  2. 2slugbaits

    What to bargain away? Gee whiz, I don’t know. Maybe soybean farmers could offer up some ideas. You think?

    According to a recent Monmouth poll, 40% of self-identified Republicans did not know that Trump mentioned Biden by name in the infamous phone call. It’s bad enough that those people vote, but just remember that they also serve on juries. Kind of scary.

  3. Moses Herzog

    Chairmen Xi Jinping no doubt engages in a lot of propaganda, and brainwashing of the Chinese people. Some of it they believe, some of it they don’t. As I have stated ad nauseam on this blog, I spent 7 years there, and therefor hold the belief that it gives me more leeway to discuss it than most westerners. I am probably not 100% “unbiased” as regards the nation of China or the Chinese people, and I have very much a “Love/hate” feeling towards them, for some reasons which are very personal to me.

    I feel strongly that the propaganda that Xi Jinping and the Politburo spread on state controlled TV, state controlled internet, and in state controlled newspapers traces its way through society in the same ways it does in any nation—-lower educated citizens generally duped, higher-educated citizens with a keen ability to “read between the lines” and have a solid grasp of reality—with some anomalies in each of those groups (For example: high IQ people with little institutional education).

    I don’t think the vast majority of lies Xi Jinping tells can hold a candle to donald trump’s lies trump tells on a dailybasis in terms of cynicism towards humanity, condescension, depth of evil, level of insult to others’ intelligence etc. In other words, Xi Jinping’s lies match neither the breadth nor depth of the lies donald trump tells daily. Perhaps because even Xi Jinping as a higher regard for the level of HIS nation’s general citizenry’s intelligence.

    2. ilsm

      Liz Warren (R2P excusing muscular militarism?) just joined the aggressive Obama/Clinton liberal intervention clan going off on ‘Red China’ and Hong Kong riots. It s more complex. What is the democrat opposition’s need for aggressive engagement? I am not an isolationist but I do not go along with R2P.

        1. ilsm

          Let me clarify: Liz Warren is another neocon PNAC liberal, “strong on using the US military” in line with democrats from Bill Clinton military meddling in Serbia through Obama funding al Qaeda and entering US forces into Syria. While criticizing moving NATO east against assurances made by GHW Bush makes me a Russian bot. You can character assassinate Barr all you want in the warm censored womb at AngryBear, his working on the deep sate on Trump in 2016 will be released soon. Notre Howie Carr does the same to Mueller based on years of covering the FBI in Boston. Where Durham put several SA’s in jail. You live on Brooklyn, NY.

          1. noneconomist

            Yeah, and 92,000 miscreants will be rounded up after their indictments are delivered in the middle of the night (and we do bed rousting, yada, yada) and ship them to Guantanamo where all 92,000 will be tried in military courts. (See, I’ve been paying attention to J. Blowhard Hambone)
            When they’re tried and gone, we’ll all go back to living off the “fatta the lan”, worshipping Jesus, and venerating the Constitution
            .And, of course, laying rose petals in the path of our beloved leader.

          2. Barkley Rosser

            ilsm,

            You repeat a longrunning Russian lie. What GHW Bush promised Gorbachev in 1990 at the time of the German reunification, which was when the Warsaw Pact still existed and there was no question of “NATO moving east.” What Bush promised was that there would be no NATO troops put into the former East Germany after the reunification, and in fact that promise has been kept.

            Of course this became irrelevant after the Warsaw Pact disbanded itself and the USSR broke into 15 parts. Do remember that the nations that joined NATO to the east were requesting to do so out of fear of Russia. They, most notably Poland, were held off for extended periods, although there were indeed people in the US pushing for them to be admitted before they were. Given the expericne of Ukraine I would say that these nations had and have every reason to fear Russian aggression.

  4. Bruce Hall

    Trump should have spoken up about Communist China’s attempts to suppress democracy in Hong Kong; Trump should also vociferous support Taiwan; Trump should also challenge all of China’s efforts to appropriate international waters; Trump should pressure U.S. companies to begin a process of separation with China. China may be a supplier of cheap goods, but it is a political and strategic adversary and becoming more of a military and political menace toward eastern Asia and the Pacific island nations. It has alienated Vietnam and Indonesia and supports its proxy, North Korea that is a thorn in everyone’s side. There are alternatives to China as a supplier and U.S. policy should make those alternatives more attractive.

    Russia isn’t any better, morally, than China, but far less of an adversary; its interests are much less global. Our trade ties with Russia are relatively small; Russia’s expansionary goals have been limited to the Russian-majority Crimea. It certainly has significant military capabilities, but not a lot of incentive to create regional or global conflict. It has enough of its own problems on its southern border. If any president was in a position to take action against Russia for Crimea, it was Obama. But that ship sailed: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/03/05/dont-rehabilitate-obama-on-russia/ . Trump isn’t going to fix that.

    So, yes, Trump should not be asking China for favors about Biden. That story will play out without Xi.

    1. Menzie Chinn Post author

      Bruce Hall: Well, expect Trump to sell HK down the river. From CNN:

      During a phone call with Xi on June 18, Trump raised Biden’s political prospects as well as those of Sen. Elizabeth Warren, who by then had started rising in the polls, according to two people familiar with the discussion. In that call, Trump also told Xi he would remain quiet on Hong Kong protests as trade talks progressed.

          1. ilsm

            Bad analogy. US international enterprises are too often based on “morality plays” and have always hurt more human beings and left a worse economic/political mess. As Branko observed who asks the humans on the receiving end of US actions [and ineptitude]?

          2. Moses Herzog

            Am I getting confused again or wasn’t “ilsm” the guy everyone was trying to convince me was Air Force?? Does that add up to you with several of these comments?? Must have been in some strange hybrid AirForce/Army branch with Michael Flynn. Nearly all of his comments match up with Chinese government objectives.

            I think I have made it clear I am against censoring things on this blog or otherwise. I have gone so far as to defend Alex Jones being able to keep his accounts on social media (a man I basically detest). And you can have people whose natural opinions match-up with foreign policy objectives by coincidence. However I think if we get to the “beyond a shadow of a doubt” part of the gauge, I strongly favor censoring these type comments over relatively commonly used vulgarity. Not a complaint, just expressing a view.

          4. Barkley Rosser

            ilsm on other blog, such as Angry Bear, has long claimed that his views are driven by his experience in the US military in the Middle East, especially in Iraq. I have a lot of agreement with him regarding things there. He gets into trouble by extending his views of US-Russian relations there to other areas of the world and then dragging China in as well.

          5. Moses Herzog

            @ Menzie
            Appreciate the clarification. My apologies to whichever party I offended. Well, I should apologize to Menzie as well, as I in essence misquoted him, so I am sorry for that.

          6. Moses Herzog

            @ Menzie
            Did you see “ilsm” comment at bottom of thread?? (rhetorical question) I mean, there’s no need to make anything of it since I honestly couldn’t remember myself, so I’m not gonna get upset about you not remembering either. Relieved my memory’s not totally in the crapper yet, in a jaded kind of way. I mean, honest to God to you believe that sh*t relates to ilsm’s military background??

            I mean, I know Menzie, you are a professional type guy and respectful to people, and you probably think it’s a standard rule “not to question people’s internal motives”. Certainly not to question blog readers’ motives. But Geez Louise Menzie, can you believe someone with that background holding those political beliefs. I’m NOT being facetious here, I’m actually dying to know your opinion on that.

    2. Moses Herzog

      Some of this stuff is getting hard to keep up with. The IRS whistleblower is a pretty big story, and I don’t know after that gets out how they stop Congress from looking at Cadet Bonespurs’ tax forms:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymP6f6wCNLY

      I’ve really soured on the WSJ since trump started inhabiting the White House, but WSJ are coming through on some of this stuff, including the wrongful firing of the ambassador to Ukraine. You have to think the ambassador has at least one or two old texts where she was expressing these worries on Giuliani’s witch hunt.

      It appears that some of these China phone calls were put on the “top secret” digital server. The “very stable genius” was promising China MANY things including keeping quiet about the Hong Kong protests. Other promises probably more nefarious than that. Which isn’t just hurtful to America—it’s hurtful to those college age kids in Kong Kong, risking their lives for a better future. The extreme irony on this is HongKongers are fighting for the right to vote—America has the right to vote and we treat it like a fastfood wrapper to be tossed in the trash like nothing.

    3. 2slugbaits

      Bruce Hall A few days ago you opined that Trump was only casually mentioning how Ukraine could “do us a favor though.” As though it was just something that spontaneously came to mind. I think you would agree that after yesterday’s events that scenario is now inoperable. The trove of State Dept texts that prove Team Trump was engaged in a full court press to engage the Ukrainians in the Trump re-election campaign. And then yesterday Trump stood there on the WH lawn in front of dozens of cameras and reporters and openly invited China to get involved in helping Trump MAGA in 2020. I’m curious. Did Fox News cover any of that?

        1. 2slugbaits

          Yes. Fox Noise viewers are easily duped. Every other major domestic and foreign news organization is reporting a completely different story. For example:

          https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry/volker-sought-distance-himself-trump-efforts-hill-testimony-n1062626

          And here is the actual text of Volker’s testimony:
          https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6454336-Volker-Testimony-Long-Form.html

          The long and the short of it is that Volker knew that Rudy was feeding Trump a total BS story and Volker warned the Ukrainians to tread carefully; however, Volker also knew that the Ukrainians badly needed military aid so he didn’t want to rock the boat. Basically he was telling the Ukrainians to pretend to play along and humor Trump and Crazy Rudy. The problem for Volker is that when he presented his testimony he was unaware of the fact that Congress already had texts that directly contradicted his statement that he didn’t believe Trump was pressuring Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden. In fact, the texts show that he was well aware and quite worried:

          This week, current and former State Department officials have begun cooperating with the impeachment inquiry by producing documents and scheduling interviews and depositions. Based on first production of materials, it has become immediately apparent why Secretary Pompeo tried to block these officials from providing information.

          The Committees have now obtained text messages from Ambassador Kurt Volker, the former Special Representative for Ukraine Negotiations, communicating with other officials, including William B. “Bill” Taylor, the Charge d’Affaires at the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine, Gordon Sondland, the U.S. Ambassador to the European Union, Andrey Yermak, Aide to Ukrainian President Zelensky, the President’s agent Rudy Giuliani, and others.

          These test messages reflect serious concerns raised by a State Department official about the detrimental effects of withholding critical military assistance from Ukraine, and the importance of setting up a meeting between President Trump and the Ukrainian President without further delay. He also expressed concerns that this critical military assistance and the meeting between the two presidents were being withheld in order to place additional pressure on Ukraine to deliver on the President’s demand for Ukraine to launch politically motivated investigations.

          Earlier today, selected portions of these texts were leaked to the press out of context. In order to correct the public record, we are now providing an attachment with more complete excerpts from the exchanges. The additional excerpts we are providing are still only a subset of the full body of materials, which we hope to make public after a review for personally identifiable information.

          https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/_cache/files/a/4/a4a91fab-99cd-4eb9-9c6c-ec1c586494b9/621801458E982E9903839ABC7404A917.chairmen-letter-on-state-departmnent-texts-10-03-19.pdf

          Read the attachments. They’re damning. Everyone (especially Bill Taylor) recognizes that the WH was setting up a quid pro quo, but it was becoming so obvious that the ambassador to the EU (who should not have been on the discussion) had to suggest talking in code and going offline because it would look bad. Fox Noise viewers would have to be complete morons not to understand what was going on. Then again, I suspect that a lot of Fox Noise viewers have dirt jobs and don’t know a lot of high ranking State Dept officials and ambassadors.

        2. pgl

          God – you really are STUPID. He is Trump’s boy in Ukraine. Of course he made that claim. Sort of like “no collusion”.

        3. pgl

          Here is the core of Brucie boy’s Faux News story:

          “In his testimony, Volker sought to distance himself from any investigation, saying, “at no time was I aware of or took part in an effort to urge Ukraine to investigate former Vice President Biden.” He also defended Biden’s integrity, saying, “I have known former Vice President Biden for 24 years, and the suggestion that he would be influenced in his duties as vice president by money for his son simply has no credibility to me.”

          Sentence two is Volker basically saying Trump and RUDY are lying about Biden.OK! But sentence 1 here does not disprove the already well documented claim that RUDY, Trump, and Trump’s toadies in the State Department were withholding that funding for arms in exchange for dirt. Volcker is simply saying – “don’t blame me for the corruption that people around me were clearly carrying out”.

          What did you expect Volker to say Brucie? “I did it. I did it all by myself”. No Brucie boy – that is Trump and RUDY try to pin this on Volker. If you thinks this clears Trump and RUDY, then you are even dumber than I give you credit for.

      3. ilsm

        Or trump was using the Criminal cooperation treaty between US and Ukraine. The topic with Ukraine is widespread corruption, in country and with the former US VP’s son. The witch hunts………….. Giulliani’s are worse than the pervasive democrat and press agenda against Trump?

        1. noneconomist

          NOW you revert to widespread corruption. That must be why so much time has been spent on the Bidens by Trump, Giuliani, et. al. Forget the Russians. Ukraine, use those anti tank missiles on the Bidens!
          Now that you’re rationalizing bribery (and groveling for excuses) can you get any more pathetic?

        2. 2slugbaits

          ilsm You are uninformed. Joe Biden was after the Ukrainian government to fire the prosecutor because he WASN’T prosecuting corruption. He had not prosecuted a single case. Literally, not one. Zilch. Joe Biden was speaking for the Administration, as did Secretary of State John Kerry. And our NATO allies echoed those same complaints. So did the IMF. If Hunter Biden had been doing anything illegal, then Joe Biden would have been putting his own son in legal jeopardy. Please, get a clue and take the time to understand the basic facts surrounding the issue. And there is absolutely no evidence that Hunter Biden did anything illegal. What he did was smarmy, but not even close to the swampy deals Ivanka has been negotiating with foreign entities. In any event, if Ukraine has the kind of corruption problem that Trump believes, then why would you take the word of such a government that was on the wrong end of an extortion and shakedown operation? Especially since several independent investigations found no evidence of Hunter Biden doing anything illegal.

          And everyone in the intelligence and diplomatic community knew that Rudy’s theory about Ukraine and Clinton’s emails was total BS. One of Trump’s own former national security advisers told Trump to quit listening to Rudy and his completely debunked theory. Alas, Rudy’s ongoing prostate medication has well known long term mental and physiological effects, and in Rudy’s case it really shows. He’s a mess.

  5. noneconomist

    Peak Trader, where have you gone? Help from RED China! Just uttering those words (RED China) raised neck hairs of Republicans everywhere.
    Now, help is needed from those socialist/communist/totalitarian all around evil doers who are the antithesis of American values, arch enemy of American conservatives.
    Are Republicans weeping? Nah. It’s the new normal.

  6. Moses Herzog

    Volker Congressional testimony and texts:
    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/10/gops-no-quid-pro-quo-trump-defense-is-looking-pretty-weak.html

    I’m guessing Menzie will edit this, and if he does I can see why and it’s understandable. But this is actually an earnest question. If donald trump went up in front of the D.C. press core and said “Oh yeah, I r@ped that girl. Sure, that’s a very simple answer, I r@ped her” Would our Republican Senate be bored by that, once he says it in public with the intention of “normalizing” it??

    Republicans, if you want donald trump to stay in office—FINE. Just don’t EVER f’ing tell me you and/or your amoral Republican party care about “family values” or national security again. Don’t EVER F’ing tell me that again.

    1. Moses Herzog

      My above comment somewhere it should read “press corps” instead of “press core”. [ He corrected himself very red-faced ]

    2. pgl

      We should ask Trump sycophant Bruce Hall to stop believing Faux News and read this for himself. But of course he will not.

    3. pgl

      “Would our Republican Senate be bored by that, once he says it in public with the intention of “normalizing” it??”

      Actually the DONALD has sexually abused women in the past and of course Republicans have been cool with that. Now if Bill Clinton has a consensual affair with someone named Monica or whatever- that is an impeachable offense! Republicans – good, good. Democrats – EVIL!

      1. Barkley Rosser

        Well, actually Clinton was impeached for lying under oath about claiming not to have had sex with her. Still a lot less serious than the matters Trump is being impeached for.

  7. pgl

    “Red China has been protectionist since its beginning. [A]nd certainly has since it joined the worldwide trade in the 80’s or so”

    https://ustr.gov/archive/Document_Library/Fact_Sheets/2001/Background_Information_on_China's_Accession_to_the_World_Trade_Organization.html

    “World Trade Organization (WTO) members formally approved an agreement on the terms of accession for the People’s Republic of China (China) on November 10, 2001 at the WTO Ministerial Conference in Doha, Qatar. One day later, China signed the agreement and deposited its instrument of ratification with the Director-General of the WTO. China became the 143rd member of the WTO on December 11, 2001.”

    Oh wait – Ed said RED China. I guess he was talking about another nation!

  8. Steven Kopits

    In autocratic form, Chinese politics will see increasing stresses, as an ever better educated and prosperous citizenry seeks greater certainty of their property rights and greater freedom to act autonomously. Remaining an autocracy will likely require slowing the economy, and possibly turning inward, as China has many times in the past. Whether this can be achieved without a financial crisis and resulting civil unrest remains to be seen.

    In virtually every other country in the region, the ruling party has faced a crisis at some point, and ceded power to democratic forces. This has to be considered the most likely path of development for China over the long run.

    Unlike many other analysts, our view holds that China is coming to a crossroads of governance. At some point in the coming years, China will face a crisis which will either take it forward towards advanced country governance or turn it back and lead that great nation to withdraw from the world, as it has without fail throughout its long history.

    April 2018

    https://www.princetonpolicy.com/ppa-blog/2018/4/8/chinas-governance-options

    2. Moses Herzog

      @ “Princeton”Kopits
      When is the coup on Xi Jinping starting??? I know you predicted it on your blog (or did you shame yourself into taking that post down??)

      When did you time that again?? Anytime between now and 2090 they were going to throw Chairman Xi off the balcony?? I seem to remember nailing a time down for that was the more difficult aspect of your “peasantry coup on Xi” prediction.

  9. Moses Herzog

    Can anyone tell me why David Brooks continually talks about the evils of “identity politics”, then goes on to pigeonhole every broad category group under the sun??
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/03/opinion/trump-voters.html

    Has the thought ever occurred to David Brooks to go out and talk to people himself instead of “imagining” how they talk?? David Brooks is so damned dumb and detached from reality he probably thinks going to a Starbucks after he spotted an African American in the drive-thru line that he’s living life on the edge “in the ghetto”.

    Let’s “imagine” what urban douche David Brooks would say:

    Urban douche David: “Yippeeeeeeeee!!! Aayooooohh! The thrill of danger!!!! I am 20 feet away from an upper-middle class black person and the rush of adrenaline from the thrill of danger is too much!!!! God, take me now as I have reached the height of my senses!!!!!!”

    I think Brooks has been taking notes on sociology and culture from Peggy Noonan:
    https://www.wonkette.com/peggy-noonan-saw-a-mexican

    https://www.salon.com/2014/07/11/peggy_noonans_border_nonsense_her_bizarre_view_of_how_normal_people_experience_this_crisis/

  11. Moses Herzog

    I rarely visit twitter anymore because my account was suspended, but was wandering around there from some links off of Buzzfeed, and found a couple “gems” I thought I would share, even if they are a few days old:
    https://twitter.com/tvdfan_andmore/status/1177291631126568960

    Ok, now pay attention and “listen” here (read carefully) so you can follow the trail of thought of the tweet. It should be the LAST tweet in the thread, in large print that is the “punchline”, but you have to read Giuliani’s tweet at the top to get the CONTEXT of the joke.
    https://twitter.com/bigcpa01/status/1177396677830991872

    If you follow modern rap music you’ll get the joke pretty easily, but they’ve also been chronicling that goofball rapper’s story in NYT’s New York section pretty steadily. I thought the tweet was funny as hell.

  12. Moses Herzog

    Some more interesting links here, the NYT one is behind a paywall, but it’s a big story, so if you can guest pat the paywall, it is definitely worth reading:

    https://twitter.com/JohnJHarwood/status/1180190089059721221 <—-the tweet is good but there is also an important WSJ link embedded in the tweet thread

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/04/us/politics/second-trump-whistleblower.html <—-this one broke within the last 2 hours.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/attorney-general-barr-personally-asked-foreign-officials-to-aid-inquiry-into-cia-fbi-activities-in-2016/2019/09/30/d50cd5c4-e3a5-11e9-b403-f738899982d2_story.html

    https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/1180151212030779392

    https://twitter.com/neal_katyal/status/1180113275687706626

    https://twitter.com/SallyQYates/status/1180086950444879874

    https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1179917229233786880

    “Efficiency” in government. $20 million dollar for security on…… donald trump’s Secretary of Education—–>> https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/u-s-marshals-service-spending-millions-devos-security-unusual-arrangement-n909001

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/giuliani-set-to-make-paid-appearance-next-week-at-kremlin-backed-conference/2019/09/27/a15ab242-e133-11e9-8dc8-498eabc129a0_story.html

    https://twitter.com/arneduncan/status/1177925591363936256

  13. ilsm

    JBR,

    There are many documents to follow on the assurances NATO would not move east. It is also interesting to look in to the Budapest Memorandum, that went with Ukraine disbanding its former Soviet nuclear forces.

    https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

    As to my background USAF officer active 1972 to 1982. Reserve through 2002. Variety of assignments. While federal/DoD civilian I did managerial work on weapons acquisition programs.

    Lately I spend a lot of time reading more than a bit of it history.

    I am now reading a book on Marshall’s China Mission of late 1945 early 1946. Daniel Kurtz-Phela. Before this Strange Victory Earnest May. Grant’s Memoir this past summer.

    1. Barkley Rosser

      OK, ilsm, it does look like promises were made to Gorbachev, leader of the no-longer-in-existence USSR. Does the failure of those promises to be kept justify the leadr of Russia annexing Crimea from Ukraine and supporting separtists in Lunansk and Dontetsk, not to mention shooting down commercial airliners flying over the area?

      Regarding the Budapest Accord, of course this was a failure by US and UK to support Ukraine’s interests. This was when Ukraine agreed to turn over its nuclear weapons. It did so with Russia promising to respect its “territorial integrity,” and with US and UK agreeing to support that. Look what happened. Are you defending this garbage behavior by Putin? Is Poland being in NATO really a security threat to Russia? Are you out of your mind?

  14. noneconomist

    Personally, I now feel better since Trump supporters suggest he was joking about getting China’s help. That must also mean he was also joking about the Bidens’ corrupt actions in China, which were the next words out his mouth after he made the funny about China investigating them. ( He called Biden corruption there worse than anywhere else. An obvious knee-slapper!)
    That leaves only the Russians who need to find those emails and the Ukrainians who need to investigate the Bidens because the Bidens are obviously the greatest threat to Ukraine since the German occupation in WW2.

  15. David O'Rear

    Late to the game, but did anyone happen to pay the least bit of attention to WHO is exporting from China ?

    American companies.
    European companies.
    Asian companies.
    Oh, and that tiny handful of Chinese companies that can actually get the quality / price ratio right.

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