# Cumulative Mass Shooting Casualties as of 2/14/2018

Figure 1: Cumulative sum of mass shooting casualties, beginning in 1982M08; deaths inflicted by non-Muslims (dark red), wounded inflicted by non-Muslims (pink), deaths inflicted by Muslims (dark blue), wounded inflicted by Muslims (light blue). February observation for data through 2/14. Source: Mother Jones, news accounts for 2/14, and author’s calculations. Tabulations of religion of perpetrator by author.

For an alternative view of total casualties, here are the 12 month trailing moving averages of total killed and wounded.

Figure 2: Twelve month trailing moving average of mass shooting fatalities (black), wounded (gray). February observation for data through 2/14. Orange shading denotes 2017 onward. Source: Mother Jones, news accounts for 2/14, and author’s calculations.

Normalizing by population would not change the essential trends depicted in either graph.

The database underpinning these graphs provides some incomplete information on types of weapons used, and demographic breakdown of the perpetrators.

## 74 thoughts on “Cumulative Mass Shooting Casualties as of 2/14/2018”

1. randomworker

Trump promise #233 – “The crime and violence that today afflicts our nation will soon come to an end. Beginning on January 20, 2017, safety will be restored.”

2. Moses Herzog

The graphs Menzie posted up speak for themselves.

I’m too much of a lazy SOB to verify this, but Shepard Smith is reading (I’m going to step out on a ledge and assume Shepard Smith is responsible enough to make certain to get this list accurate and complete) the entire list of fatal school shootings since Columbine. Some pretty looking girl, @LisPower1 , put the video up on Twitter and all you have to do is click on the Play button after the link jump:

1. Bruce Hall

Interestingly, the chart that is figure 1 does not jibe with this:
It seems more transparent to simply examine annual estimates from the graph. Adding a preliminary estimate of 17 deaths from Parkland to the Mother Jones list brings the total number of deaths up to 816 from 98 mass shootings between 1982 and early 2018 – or just 23 deaths per year. That makes this sort of random mass shooting one of the rarest mortality risks imaginable. Falling or the flu are far more dangerous. Even when it comes to guns, 23 deaths a year pales next to the number of homicides by firearms in 2014 alone, which was 11,208 (69% of all homicides) and the number of suicides by firearms, which was 21,386 (50% of all suicides).
https://www.cato.org/blog/are-mass-shootings-becoming-more-frequent

This seems to indicate some disagreement regarding the definition of these shootings.

3. Moses Herzog

This is the stuff that’s extremely frightening, and I hesitate to put the link up. But I think it’s better voters are aware of these things than being unaware. I feel the “troublemakers” are going to find out about this stuff either way, and it’s the innocent people that will be caught unaware if it’s not discussed.

If Menzie feels sharing this video does more harm than good, I won’t take any offense if he decides not to post this comment. And I won’t discuss it farther or object anywhere in this comment thread if that is his editorial prerogative.

4. pgl

The sad thing is that it was well known that the shooter had been threatening to do something like this before. How he entered the school with a gun is beyond me.

1. Bruce Hall

pgl,

It’s quite simple: the process to confine someone suspected of dangerous mental instability, who has not acted violently with weapons, is virtually impossible. Without such confinement, all other legal remedies are moot. Restraining orders will be ignored. Weapons will be purchased illegally or stolen (about 1/2 million each year). Schools will not allow armed security or teachers to counter an attack. Police will arrive after the killing has happened.

You’re dealing with the irrational elements of a society which refuses to defend itself rationally. Even in Japan where gun ownership is nearly non-existent, the irrational still commit mass murder: https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/07/knife-attack-japan/493043/ . That’s also true for other parts of the world: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/outside-americas-knives-are-often-weapon-choice-homicides-180949953/ .

The problem is: who decides who else is a danger and then what will the law allow to prevent that dangerous person from murdering? And, further, if you own a gun to protect yourself, will you be prosecuted for using it (thereby deterring self-defense)? https://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/updates-jailed-marine-case/

In Texas, where gun ownership is high, the state published the following;

Total Convictions in Texas 42,797
Convictions of LTC Holders 148
LTC Holder Percentage of Total Convictions 0.3458%
https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/LTC/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2016.pdf

The problem was, is, and will be with the criminal element (who ignore legal niceties) and the mentally ill (who may be confused about the legal niceties).

5. Moses Herzog

Let’s not forget, this is usually the part in the proceedings where the Republican Senator or Republican U.S. Representative that has taken a motherload of cash bribes from the NRA usually gets on Twitter or does a press release “Asking for the public’s prayers”.

At the risk of sounding cynical or sacrilegious, I really don’t think prayers will do a hell of a lot of good, until we start doing THOROUGH background checks for gun purchases, and have a state registry for those with psychological issues tied into the background check (along with OTHER redflags not currently included in background checks). And also redneck Dads and redneck Moms figuring out you don’t leave the 3-year old to 12 year old (maybe older) alone in the house with an unsecured (not locked away and hidden) gun. Many of the gun deaths I see on TV (in a southern state) have NOTHING to do with serial crime. They happen because Grandpa Billy-Joe Bob of Sh*twater Alabama left his shotgun on the coffee table, with junior 4 feet away, sitting on the couch.

1. pgl

My father endured serving in World War II returning to Georgia never wanting to see another gun. My grand mother once suggested she teach me to shoot but he vetoed that idea. Good thing. I deplore guns. My kids were raised in a gun free environment. Thank goodness.

1. Bruce Hall

Hopefully, your principles will never have to be tested. Some of us simply see gun ownership as another form of insurance.

“An estimated 3.7 million household burglaries occurred each
year on average from 2003 to 2007. In about 28% of these
burglaries, a household member was present during the burglary.
In 7% of all household burglaries, a household member
experienced some form of violent victimization (figure 1). ”
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt

That’s almost 260,000 people annually who are victims of violence from just that one type of home invasion.

6. Moses Herzog

This was posted on Buzzfeed around 3:25am (I’m assuming central time, but not sure).

I’m sure many will tear into the FBI over this (some for their own convenience). But frankly, even if they had met the boy eye-to-eye, what would/could the FBI have done?? Offered Cruz counseling that no one in lower-income brackets can afford?? As far as I know the FBI doesn’t give free counseling, unless Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell have started handing out “vouchers” to clinical psychiatrists with the financial sophistication of a 9 year old.

1. pgl

This sort of reminds me of the connect the dots discussions following 9/11. The Bush Administration did not even try to connect the dots before 9/11. Had the FBI managed to do the next to impossible and connect the dots – I’m wondering if they had the legal authority to seize any guns Cruz managed to have obtained. Of course this is Florida and the answer is likely no. And the hands of the NRA are all over this.

7. SydFox

Hi. I live in Australia.
It’s been almost 21 years since the last mass shooting here.
In 1996, 35 people were killed in Tasmania by a nutter who should never had access to guns. (Here he is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bryant)
It followed a decade in which mass shootings (>4 people) had occurred every year.
Our government controversially banned all semi automatic weapons, restricted ownership, and ran a gun buyback scheme.

Since 1996, no mass shootings.
Zero (0).
Here’s the chart: https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/0*kx7NCobbXPFIdyip.jpg

Guns are not banned in Australia. It’s just very well regulated.
To anyone who says ‘it wont work in the US’ … just remember, that’s what all the Australian gun lobbyists said here too in 1996.

I wish you well. #peace

1. pgl

Excellent point!

“In 1996, 35 people were killed in Tasmania by a nutter who should never had access to guns.”

The US has all sort of nutters whose 2nd Amendment right to carry a military assault weapon trumps the right of children to attend school safely. I’m glad Australia wised up a generation ago!

1. pgl

“Mental illness, worsened by alcohol or drugs, may cause or contribute to mass shootings.”

There is nothing to indicate that Cruz was mentally ill due to years of alcohol abuse. He was a teen age kid. Could you please stop with such irrelevant garbage?

Of maybe you want to blame Cruz on Obama being President. Lord!

2. pgl

You should take little Marco’s advice. You are jumping to all sorts of stupid conclusions not supported by a damn thing with respect to why Cruz killed these people. Little Marco (Senator Rubio) wants you to stop:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/rubio-wait-for-facts

Of course Rubio is afraid we might ignore the NRA and pass sensible gun legislation. Something tells me that Bottom Feeder is being paid by the NRA for his serial nonsense.

1. pgl

A five year old discussion from Captains Journal that starts with:

“Nothing original to add here, but this posting I picked up from Instapundit”.

Lord – do you spend 24/7 looking for right wing intellectual garbage or what?

1. 2slugbaits

pgl A five year old discussion from Captains Journal

PeakTrader does this a lot. A helluva lot of his posts are simply copy/paste jobs from whacko sites that are 4 or 5 years old. Some older. Just the other day he posted some stupid link about how Americans hated France. The link was so old it had moss growing on it. And a lot of those links are fake news sites pushed out to the gullible. How many were written by Russian trolls hiding behind fake identities? Who knows, maybe we’re really arguing with Comrade PeakTraderov living in some cold Moscow apartment.

Our Founding Fathers made a lot of stupid mistakes. One of their worst was the 2nd Amendment. But we’re stuck with it. Since folks on the far right are big fans of the death penalty, perhaps they would agree that anyone who sells or arranges for the acquisition of a gun used in a murder should also face capital punishment. I doubt that the death penalty is much of a deterrent for folks who are mass murdering nutjobs, but it would probably be very effective at deterring people from owning, selling or helping people acquire guns used to commit mass murder. So if you want to own an AR-15, then just make damn sure it’s locked up at all times and you never sell it or loan it out.

1. pgl

“PeakTrader does this a lot. A helluva lot of his posts are simply copy/paste jobs from whacko sites that are 4 or 5 years old.”

It took me seconds to figure this one out. I guess Peaky thinks he can lie to us because we are just as stupid as he is.

When 2slugbaits isn’t making up fairy tales, he wants to take away rights, like the Nazis. And, make it impossible to own a gun for protection, unless you’re rich and well-connected. The founding fathers were wise to protect Americans from elitists like 2slugbaits.

2. Moses Herzog

@ SydFox
Thank you for this mature and discerning comment Syd. Americans often hear this from good-hearted people of other nations with better gun laws, less gun deaths, and apparently (I am ashamed as an American to admit), better educated citizens. But when Republicans of our nation have spent the last 30 years decimating and hollowing out our public education system by starvation of funds, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised AT ALL that citizens of other nations often sound more intelligent than my own countrymen.

It’s really not a mystery why, of democratized and well-developed nations, America is the worst in terms of both gun violence and worst in the gargantuan amount of dollars spent on healthcare, for bad health results. Only certain segments of society, like to pretend it is a “mystery”, so they can ride their gravy train, whose train engine, instead of running on coal or diesel, runs on the fuel of human lives lost.

Some Americans might be surprised to know, Republicans in Congress passed a law, making it ILLEGAL for the CDC to measure and document gun violence. If they are, they haven’t been paying attention. The law to make research on gun violence by the CDC illegal was put into affect by Republican congressman Jay Dickey of Arkansas back in 1996, over TWENTY years ago :

Republicans often ignore information and objective research that doesn’t fit their agenda, such as Trump and his staff omitting analysis done by OMB on restaurant owners poaching and pilfering waiters and waitresses tips. Restaurants pocketing their own worker’s sweat equity:

Of course the more information the VSG and his cabinet hide, omit, or lie about, the more he can dumb-down the electorate and control them. That’s why Trump loves guys like Scott Pruitt, even as Pruitt wastes \$36,000 on a single plane flight from Cincinnati to New York. This is Trump’s version of “eliminating government waste”. This was after Pruitt spent \$7,000 on a round-trip ticket to Italy.
https://newrepublic.com/article/147077/scott-pruitts-first-class-travel-scandal

3. Bruce Hall

Interesting point. Another interesting point was made in The Atlantic (2/16/18) regarding another country’s experience with widespread gun ownership and efforts to restrict the people’s rights: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/swiss-guns/553448/

If you examine the rate of total homicides by different groups within the U.S., you will find that there is significant variation among those groups that points to a problem that most politicians are very reluctant to address. I would say that mental instability among the mass murderers goes to the general population https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/ . You have to normalize for the percentage of the total population for each group.

8. Tom

Why do these people commit such terrible acts of evil? I think we as a society really need to address that question. Broken families? The diminishing level of religiosity in society?

Banning guns sounds like the expedient solution, and it may prevent some deaths at the margin. But it does not address the fundamental question of why people feel a need to commit such heinous acts.

1. King John's return

“Why do these people commit such terrible acts of evil?” Here’s the answer: Because they’re human and humans can break for any number of reasons: social, familial , biological, environmental, etc. It has always been and will always be. The only difference between NOW and the past is the overabundance of assault weapons available to anyone with the desire to acquire one (legally or illegally). The only way to address it has been answered by SydFox, our friend from Australia. Sadly, American politicians have been bought and paid for by the NRA.

We need armed security guards or responsible gun owners to deter nut cases and protect lives.

Also, we need to enforce drug laws better, including marijuana, to reduce the enormous social costs.

Homeland Security and law enforcement, along with the military, have done an excellent job preventing foreign influenced terrorism in the U.S. and should be praised.

1. pgl

“we need to enforce drug laws better”.

Maybe but drugs had nothing to do with Cruz’s terrorism.

Your suggestion that other high school kids be allowed to carry guns to class is beyond insane.

10. Erik Poole

So what is the argument here?

President Trump takes office => mass public shootings jump up

I am not sure what the problem is. Trump is playing to America’s cultural industry advantage by creating entertainment value. Surely, being an intelligent, self-aware people, more entertaining violence is what Americans want, isn’t it?

1. pgl

This has been going on well before Trump as President Obama ably noted when he was in office. Of course the fact that we failed to renew the assault weapons ban in 2004 was part of the problem.

1. pgl

“Shaun Broyhill is a resident of Sioux City, IA and is currently the Republican nominee running in Iowa House District 13. He software engineer with a computer science degree from Briar Cliff University and Master of Science degree from Iowa State University. He has also served in the Nebraska Army National Guard.”

An Republican from Iowa? Yea right Peaky. You found another right wing spinner – not a credible source. Please stop spamming this comment section with your incessant intellectual garbage.

1. pgl

Well let’s see. Faux News is only 20 years old so maybe it is all the right wing lies that people like you spread that have these nut jobs use assault weapons to commit mass murder. Proud of yourself Peaky?

Mass shootings peaked when Bill Clinton assualted women in the ‘90s. You’re the one, who should be proud liberal/socialist, like Harvey Weinstein.

1. Barkley Rosser

Looks like Menzie Chinn has nailed you on this one, Peak Trader, yet another blatant lie. Lie lie lie lie, that is all you seem to know how to do here. Just shameful.

2. Barkley Rosser

BTW, I see that you have not responded to my challenge to you on another thread to provide an example of me making a false statement that I was not willing to correct when somebody successfully showed that I was wrong about a hard facrt. I know you have not met that challenge because you cannot. Instead you came over to this thread to spout more fake news non-facts, in short, lies. Pathetic and shameful.

11. CoRev

“Assault weapon is a term used in the United States to define some types of firearms. The definition varies among regulating jurisdictions, but usually includes semi-automatic firearms with a detachable magazine and a pistol grip, and sometimes other features such as a flash suppressor or barrel shroud.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon

How do these features, which are independent from the firing platform, increase shooting deaths? The singular feature that increases firing rate is being semi-automatic. Even a semi-automatic weapon may fire only marginally faster than manually cocked/fired weapons. Semi-automatic weapons have been readily available to the general public for nearly a century.

A common conception is that the features of assault are not needed/desired by the normal hunting/gun enthusiast public, but this a misconception. As the key features of military weapons, weight, ease of handling and reduced cost of ammunition, are exactly the same features desired by hunters and gun enthusiasts.

Some day common sense will prevail mass killings, but not today.

1. pgl

Yea – one needs a machine gun to take down Bambi. Not. Way to make an easy issue unnecessarily complicated. I’m sure the NRA pays you well.

2. noneconomist

You just wonder how in the world did hunters succeed before access to assault-style weapons? Somehow, my grandfather seemed to get his share with nothing more than a Remington single shot 16 gauge and a 30-30. I’m told they often produced extra to what was farm grown.
If he’d only had an AK-47?

3. 2slugbaits

CoRev This is false. And what do you know about military weapons? No one needs 100 round magazines to go hunting. If you need a 100 rounds to kill a rabbit, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. And no one needs a semi-automatic weapon to hunt unless you’re a hopelessly lousy shot, in which case you shouldn’t be hunting. Most hunting of small game is done with shotguns…typically .410 gauge. In some states you could use a .223 caliber round, although it’s illegal to hunt with rifles in many states. Even deer hunters use 12 gauge deer slugs rather than .30+ caliber rounds in a lot of states. The only time you really need a rifle to hunt is if you’re hunting very large game. And with large caliber rifles it’s the accuracy of the shot and not the number of shots you can get off that makes hunting a sport. There’s simply no legitimate use for a semi-automatic rifle. The only reason people have assault rifles is because it allows them to live out some crazy Rambo fantasies.

…the key features of military weapons, weight, ease of handling and reduced cost of ammunition, are exactly the same features desired by hunters and gun enthusiasts.

Wrong. Targeted killings in combat are done using high caliber bolt action rifles, not .223 round gas powered semi-automatic weapons. The rationale for the M16 rifle and M4 carbine is that they fire a high velocity round that doesn’t have so much kinetic energy that it passes through the victim. A military grade .223 round kills by spiking the blood pressure when all of the kinetic energy in the round is absorbed by the body. Commercial grade .223 rounds don’t do that. They can kill a rabbit if you’re a good shot and they are fun at target ranges, but unless you can fire off a lot of rounds they are not especially lethal. You don’t hear of mass murderers using a single shot bolt action Pershing rifle even though it uses basically the same round as the AR-15. Legitimate hunters and target practice enthusiasts should not have any problems with outlawing semi-automatic weapons that carry large magazines.

BTW, contrary to what you said, the M16 is not easy to maintain. The maintenance task distribution in the tech manual assumes that a trained soldier requires 90 minutes to disassemble, correctly clean and reassemble the rifle. And cleaning is critical because a dirty gun using commercial ammo will quickly clog the gas ports, resulting in a jam. That was the big problem back in the Vietnam era. The ammo was developed using one spec from the old Munitions Command and the rifle was designed by the old Weapons Command and the engineers in Dover, NJ assuming a faster burning propellant. The M16 is also on the way out and will eventually be replaced by a successor to the old NATO M14.

1. CoRev

You also claim: “And no one needs a semi-automatic weapon to hunt unless you’re a hopelessly lousy shot, in which case you shouldn’t be hunting.” I know from your comment you do not hunt waterfowl, nor do you shoot skeet nor sporting clays. If these sporting shooters do not shoot over unders they shoot semi-autos. Some few may still use pump action shotguns, but they are few. In the waterfowl blinds you will most often find semi-autos and in a goose blind they often will be 10 gauge.

You obviously know little about firearms. My comment was: “As the key features of military weapons, weight, ease of handling and reduced cost of ammunition, are exactly the same features desired by hunters and gun enthusiasts.” Note those, as they are important. But5 perhaps the most important feature is the variety of commercially available options, which makes thisAR5 platform extremely usable.

1. 2slugbaits

CoRev I was talking about the commercial versus military ammunition propellant. You referred to the “ease of handling”. You might not consider the difficulty of maintaining a weapon in operating condition as part of the overall “ease of handling”, but I would. And so do program managers in DoD. The point about the 50 year history is that it emphasizes the practical problems of using automatic weapons and their inherent unreliability. Some of the features that you listed as being desirable are precisely things that make the M16 undesirable, which is why it is being replaced. And if you’re deer hunting, the real weight issue is the weight of the deer, not the weight of the gun. The riskiest part of deer hunting is the heart attacks people have trying to drag the deer to their truck or gator.

Now I would agree that in the case of shooting waterfowl or skeet there is a case for semi-automatic shotguns. But you’re only talking about a handful of rounds. But semi-automatic shotguns are not semi-automatic rifles with 100 round magazines. I don’t think there’s a hue-and-cry to ban pump shotguns.

The only kind of hunting people do with an AR-15 style rifle is people hunting. Deer hunters don’t use AR-15s. In fact, a lot of states outlaw deer hunting with any kind of rifle. Deer slugs only. Waterfowl hunters don’t use AR-15s.

You’re right about one thing. I am one of the few members of my family who doesn’t hunt. I used to shoot at the range with bolt action target rifles, but anymore now you have to join the NRA to even shoot at a target range, so I gave that up long ago.

1. CoRev

2slugs, you confirm you actually know litt6le about guns: “You referred to the “ease of handling”. You might not consider the difficulty of maintaining a weapon in operating condition as part of the overall “ease of handling”, but I would.” You are wrong, again!

You also make a comment about automatic weapons, but the discussion was about semi-automatic versions of hunting/sporting weapons. You, pgl, noneconomist also made the same illogical jump showing your ignorance. Automatic weapons are already constrained.

And what point are you even trying to make with this absurdity about the AR-15: “The riskiest part of deer hunting is the heart attacks people have trying to drag the deer to their truck or gator. ” As an older deer hunter I am totally aware of where the danger lies. If I could carry a lighter, faster handling weapon in the field I surely would, because that lighter weight might just save me from the feared heart attack.

These are just lies! “The only kind of hunting people do with an AR-15 style rifle is people hunting.” and “but anymore now you have to join the NRA to even shoot at a target range, ” http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/rifles/best-ars-deer-hunting/ Why are you so driven to lie?????

BTW, the only point you have made that is pertinent to the discussion concerned 100 round magazines. Large capacity mags have been in and out of legal status. Re-implement it again if you must, but try to enforce it.

2. CoRev

Here is an article on the AR15 (may be behind pay wall): https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/the-ar-15-americas-rifle-or-illegitimate-killing-machine/2018/02/15/743e66ca-1266-11e8-9065-e55346f6de81_story.html?utm_term=.57b0189c3491
WaPo is not a right leaning newspaper, but does do a pretty good job of reporting on the gun. Most importantly it shows how popular this gun is for most shooting sports, including hunting. Remember that misconception: “The only kind of hunting people do with an AR-15 style rifle is people hunting. Deer hunters don’t use AR-15s.”
And “Yea – one needs a machine gun to take down Bambi.”
And “You just wonder how in the world did hunters succeed before access to assault-style weapons? Somehow, my grandfather seemed to get his share with nothing more than a Remington single shot 16 gauge and a 30-30.” BTW, 30-30 is a rifle bullet caliber and not a rifle type.

To illustrate the ignorance I would like to repeat one of the representative comments: “Lord – the most (ignorant,) dishonest and pathetic comment(s) of the day. And there have been so many.” (My amplifications).

Liberals too often rely upon and react to emotion. In so doing they show their ignorance of the actual subject. If a new gun control act with a modicum of success can be identified or drafted, please do so!

3. CoRev

I forgot to clarify this comment: “And “Yea – one needs a machine gun to take down Bambi.” The AR15 is not a machine gun, but a semi-automatic. AR10/15s can be bought in most calibers from .17 to .358, small enough for a child to learn to shoot and fire arms safety and large enough to bring down large game. The AR-style platform is used in nearly every style of long gun.

There are some even newer style designs being adopted. If the AR platform is scary to you, wait till you see these newer platforms increase commercial availability.

2. pgl

“No one needs 100 round magazines to go hunting.”

Maybe CoRev does as he is otherwise blind to the real world.

12. pgl

We just heard from Cruz’s attorney and the defense strategy is already out there. Cruz lost his parents and he is a broken young teenager. Yep – the insanity defense. Sorry but this is pathetic.

13. pgl

Listening to Senator Murphy. Do we have more mental illness than other nations? No. Do we have more guns than other nations? Yes. Do we have a broken political system dominated by the NRA? Absolutely!

14. pgl

So what are the Russian bots doing today? The news just reported that they are flooding the internet with pro gun spin. Who knew – Peak Trader and CoRev are both Russian bots!

15. Anon3

A shame that Dems only care about gun violence when white kids get shot. Blacks are slaughtered in far larger numbers week after week in Chicago ……… and all we get from sanctimonious Dems is crickets.

1. Moses Herzog

@ Anon3
This is from one of your favorite news sources, FOX news. They seem to strongly imply a large portion of Chicago’s gun violence is crime “exported” by Indiana.
http://fox59.com/2016/06/23/statistics-rank-indiana-low-in-gun-violence-prevention/

Be careful criticizing ANY FOX link Anon3, as any criticism of FOX news may rain down a centuries long blood curse on your descendants and the ghosts of Ronald Reagan, Charlton Heston, and William F. Buckley shall bring them nightmares to eternity. Don’t make the ghost of Charlton Heston angry. You wouldn’t like Charlton Heston’s ghost when he’s angry.
https://youtu.be/7cTlkwrkGBY?t=9s

Anon3, it’s not just blacks getting killed. Hispanic gangs are using AR-15s and AK-47s. So much for gun laws.

Latin America has fewer guns per capita, but higher homicide rates compared to the U.S..

16. baffling

i am disappointed to not hear from rick stryker as an advocate for more guns as a solution to these mass shootings. does rick no longer believe that more firepower is the solution? his silence leads me to think that he and jr have turned over a new leaf, having learned that his past positions have been so wrong. i am so glad rick is now an advocate of gun control and the elimination of these assault weapons. rick probably has taken a new position in favor of limiting global climate change as well. kudos for rick, even in his silence, to have become a more responsible citizen. kudos.

1. baffling

Perhaps rick stryker’s absence is related to the recent Russian propaganda indictiments against Russian agents who attempted to influence the election with faux news on social media sites. Perhaps corev and bottom trader will be next…

17. 2slugbaits

Did anyone see that picture of the shooter wearing that red “Make America Great Again” hat? I’m not kidding.

I hear a lot of pro-gun types arguing that people with mental illnesses shouldn’t have guns. That sounds reasonable, but where in the Constitution does it say the 2nd Amendment doesn’t apply to people with mental illness? My reading of that silly Amendment says that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. So isn’t it an infringement to deny people with mental illness the right to bear arms? If you’re uncomfortable with this argument, then maybe it’s because the 2nd Amendment is uncomfortably stupid. But if you’re a real pro-NRA type, then I don’t know how you can consistently argue that mentally ill people shouldn’t be allowed to buy guns. And I don’t see where the 2nd Amendment says government can infringe on the rights of felons to buy guns.

But how do we know if someone is mentally ill? A good test would be to ask if they voted for Trump. And if they voted for both Nixon and Trump, then it’s a no brainer. Something is seriously wrong.

1. CoRev

More fake news 2slugs: “Did anyone see that picture of the shooter wearing that red “Make America Great Again” hat? I’m not kidding.”

18. Anon3

In just 5 states there were 5,400 illegal immigrants in state/ local jails for homicide related crimes in 2009. If we assume just one murder per illegal incarcerated, then 5,400 people were murdered by illegal immigrants in JUST 5 states in 2009.

5400 murdered in just five states — average of 15 murdered each day — the equivalent of a Parkland school shooting every day! But when it comes to the slaughter of innocent Americans by illegal immigrants, all we get from sanctimonious Democrats is crickets.

2slugbaits needs to substitute guns for cars to learn who’s really mentally ill.

Guns and cars don’t kill people, it’s people’s intent.

The NRA provides a service teaching safety and competence – do you want unsafe and incompetent drivers?

Why make owning a gun or a car much more expensive, ban them, make them smaller or slower, etc.?

1. Barkley Rosser

A half century ago when I was getting my Eagle Boy Scout badge, I got an NRA marksmanship medal. Back then they focused on these things you now mention, safety training and so on.

However, some decades ago they went nuts and began pushing things like letting the mentally ill buy guns, a rule change signed in by Trump last Feb. 28 at their behest. He and they are guilty guilty guilty of this latest massacre in Florida, and you are too, PT, with your defense of their policies and failure to call them out on their responsibility in this matter. Shame on you. Just disgusting.

1. baffling

Bottom trader has no shame. Look at his excuses for the financial crisis. Rather than acknowledge the rightful blame of the financial actors, bottom trader simply blames the government for making the bankers behave in such an irresponsible and unethical manner. You think he would ever accept any responsibility for the killing of school children? A vocal segment of the populations wants no part of any gun control, is willing to allow folks with risky backgrounds and behaviors to purchase a gun, and is willing to allow those armed folks to enter locations where innocent children are present and unaware of the risks folks like bottomtrader, corev and rick stryker have created. But none of those folks-bottomtrader, corev or rick stryker-are willing to acknowledge their responsibility in this problem. Pathetic.

2. CoRev

Barkley, your comment epitomizes mine: “Liberals too often rely upon and react to emotion. In so doing they show their ignorance of the actual subject. If a new gun control act with a modicum of success can be identified or drafted, please do so!” Emotion, especially anger, gets us no where. Work at drafting a law that would work … might. Otherwise you are just emoting without effect or purpose. I hope you feel better, but “Shame on you. Just disgusting” for a man of your position failing to learn or actually think.

20. Barkley Rosser

CoRev,

Are you suggesting that I am “ignorant” of the “actual subject” of gun laws and policies? You provide zero evidence of that being true. You wish to imitate PT with vacuous accusations?

As it is a couple of pretty obvious and easily done things that would probably at least slightly improve the situation without any threat to legitimate gun owners would be to undo the rule changes Trump approved that make it easier for the mentally ill and terrorists to buy guns. Another completely easy one would be to close the gun show loophole on background checks. The case is also plenty strong for simply banning AR-15s and all semi-automatic guns, but I suspect that you would find this either to be something that would not “work” or perhaps be unacceptably in violation of the Second Amendment.

Sorry, but I do not retract my description of PT as being disgusting. Your joke of an effort to defend him simply shoots itself in the foot.

1. CoRev

Barkley, I just call it as I see it! Sometimes we all can be wrong, liberals too often are wrong because of their emotions.

My request was to write legislation thtt had a chance of enforcement. There is no enforcement chance for: “The case is also plenty strong for simply banning AR-15s and all semi-automatic guns,…” Banning AR-15s only means no gun will be manufactured and sold with that model number. Banning all semi-autos will bans well over ~1/2 to 2/3 of all guns. Not going to happen and if enforcement is attempted could easily cause many more deaths.

As for the “gun show loop hole” I think you need to better define what you mean. There are a lot of misconception concerning it. The current law is a compromise that was carefully worked out, just what would need changing and is it enforceable.

I stand by: “for a man of your position failing to learn or actually think.” especially by letting your emotions dictate a response. Just because you disagree with PT’s/other conservative views does not mean your own are more correct.

Barkley, what’s “disgusting” is your rigid ideology, regardless of the facts.

And, you’re not even aware of your lies!

21. Barkley Rosser

CoRev,

I grant that we are not likely to recall all the AR-15s already out there, but all the other items I suggested are simple and completely practical, with some of them simply being returning to earlier laws, including banning semi-automatics. Most of the world does what I suggested and far more. All of it is completely practical in the US.

As for my issue with PT, it is a matter of hard cold facts, which is not the same thing as arguing over what might or might not happen if we change this law or that law, which we would have to actually do to learn the hard cold facts outcomes. I have now repeatedly challenged him to provide a single instance of when I have made a factually inaccurate statement that I failed to retract when it was credibly pointed out to me that I was wrong. He has failed to do so so far.

His failure to do so is clear in his comments here where he just whines about me calling him names, the poor pathetic thing. He reverts to denouncing me for my alleged “ideology,” which he has no idea of, given how totally stupid and ignorant he is. Yoy, CoRev, are marginally above him in this regard, but if you play knee jerk goose step bs following him without a shred of factual substance, I am prepared to send you as well into the intellectual toilet that he currently resides in here.

Bottom line is that Peak Trader continues to fail to provide a single instance of me making a factually inaccurate statement here, even as he has been caught just recently making at least two: the first being the claim that US GDP growth exceeded 3% in the 4th quarter of 2017, and the second the one Menzie just nailed him on here regarding numbers of mass shootings. You want to join this worthless joke of a commentator in his ignorant stupidity, CoRev? Do you?

To both of you losers, put up or shut up, and about facts not about ideology or just dumb whining.

1. CoRev

Barkley, again I fear you’re letting your emotions drive your rhetoric. I further suspect you know very little about gun control issue and GUNS beyond emotion. I provided reasons why your proposals were unworkable or enforceable. Your proposal: ” “The case is also plenty strong for simply banning AR-15s and all semi-automatic guns,…” and you later added “Most of the world does what I suggested and far more. and far more.”

My request was to write legislation thtt had a chance of enforcement, and my response to your original proposal. “…Banning all semi-autos will ban well over ~1/2 to 2/3 of all guns. Not going to happen and if enforcement is attempted could easily cause many more deaths. I highlighted the main difference between the US and your: “Most of the world does what I suggested and far more.” Most of the world does not have the 2nd amendment. Without changing that amendment, implementing your preferred solution could likely result in armed insurrection.

Either use your God given logic instead of emotions to consider the impacts of your recommendations, but to do that you must first learn something about the subject. You apparently understood my logic re: the AR-15 banning issue. The highlighted logic may be even more important.

Please stop the emoting. Not only are your (and many others) views not more correct, but most have already been tried here and rejected. The definition of insanity applies here, but so does that of an ideologue.

22. Barkley Rosser

CoRev,

Semi-automatic guns were banned in the US by law in 1994. The law was enforced. There was no armed insurrection, and it did not violate the Second Amendment.. The law was allowed to lapse. The vast majority of American people support putting that law back in place, but gun nuts threaten armed insurrection. We currently ban full-out machine guns. Why are we not having armed insurrection over that?

Prior to Feb. 28 last year we had stricter rules on letting the mentally ill buy guns. You think after recent events there would be an armed insurrection over reverting to the law that had been in force previously and was enforced?

Closing the gunshow loophole on background checks would be trivial and easily enforced and wildly popular and not remotely in violation of the Second Amendment. Gun nuts would engage in armed insurrection over that? How far out of your mind are you, CoRev?

While you declare me to be overly emoting (dinging PT for repeatedly lying and failing to admit it) and also supposedly knowing little about guns or the laws, in fact I have done research on this, although none of it is published. But this is pretty typical of gun nuts, declaring that anybody who disagrees with them does not know what they are talking about, although failing to provide any factual evidence of such.

So, you are now also on the list: find anywhere on this site I have made a factually erroneous statement I have been unwilling to correct when it has pointed out to me. Heck, CR, just find me making one factually incorrect statement, period. Time to show up or shoot up.

And as for the Second Amendment, for well over 200 years it had a well-established judicial interpretation that recognized it had been put in place so that we could have a ready potential for a “militia” in a world where we did not have a standing military, with the individual right to bear arms subordinated to that. Then recently we got Heller, which changed that longstanding interpretation, reflecting the political influence of the NRA.

But that is likely to change. Parkland may do for gun control what starlets complaining about Harvey Weinstein did for sexual harassment and abuse, turn the political calculus upside down. The NRA has been getting its way against the overwhelming majority for several decades since they went off the rails and stop emphasizing education and safety as they long did, but this dictatorship by a small minority of gun nuts may be about to change. People have simply had it.